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I don't mean to sound wanky or anything, but I'm starting to get sick of women being graphically murdered on Supernatural. The show just wasn't this violent in the first and second seasons. Sure, there was blood, but the dude from "Home" getting his hand getting stuck in the garbage disposal was horror movie corny violence; a close-up a teenage girl being drowned in a toilet? It feels different, and I don't like it.

That said, "Criss Angel is a Douchebag" and "After School Special" were better episodes than I've seen in a while.

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Same. I've never been into gore stuff - I hate it, it freaks me a lot (I'm really phobic about blood and cutting and that sort of thing... the razor blade scene in "It's the Great Pumpkin..." almost made me throw up). It's the reason I don't watch horror movies. Supernatural never used to be like that, and it bugs me. :\

Yeah, I know what you mean. Even when it's not the bad guys, or whatever, I see a lot of it. Particularly.. and I know this is wank-bait, but I see it in comparing Ruby to, say, Jo. I'll admit a bias here (I hate Ruby), but... Jo was a more "real" character; she had dreams and ambitions that had nothing to do with the boys, she was her own person. And they kicked her off the show, only to bring in Ruby who... well, she doesn't seem to have an existence, really, outside of the boys. She doesn't have her own purpose or passion aside from, apparently, "screw over the Winchesters and kill Lilith", the latter of which apparently she needs Sam to do for her. Her personality is almost a blank. She's the ultimate wish fulfillment, a character that any fangirl could have come up with or could put themselves in the place of, the "good" demon who screws the guy. She doesn't have enough individuality to "count" as her own person - which I think is the crucial thing there. On the other hand, Jo had her own personality and was undeniably an individual, a "real girl"... and the fangirls hated her, and got her kicked from the show for daring to show interest in a man.

I don't really know if that's more the fandom or the show's misogyny in action there, though. It can go both ways, since allegedly, it was Kripke's listening to the fans that got Jo kicked off the show. I do think the move from more individual, personally-driven females - Ellen and Jo - to women who need the boys more and don't particularly seem to have a life or any desires or ambitions outside of hanging around them - Ruby being the biggest example of this, but Bela also had a lot of that - is indicative of a shift more from.. respecting women as their own people to using them as props. :\

Apologies for the novel. xD;;; I put way too much thought into these things.

You have a point! Thing is, in the third season, Ruby did seem to have some sort of motivation separate from the guys—they never went into it, but it was implied. Now? She's in love with Sam, I think, and god, that's killing me. SHE'S DOING IT ALL FOR A MAN, that's never been done before, great. This is why I didn't mind Bela as a character. She wasn't supposed to be a good guy, after all, and like her or hate her, it's hard to deny that she was a character that existed separate from the Winchesters, she did her own thing and had her own motivations, and they were somewhat compelling ones, even. But this isn't just restricted to the female characters. After all, what does Bobby do, nowadays, but swoop in periodically to save Sam and Dean's asses? If Sam and Dean were making like, any kind of progression whatsoever, ANY kind of character development, I wouldn't mind as much. But they aren't. And now every secondary character is just, like, half a person, because they don't exist beyond how they help the boys? Er.

I think Kripke caters too much to what he thinks the fans want to see, thus Jo getting kicked off when everyone hated her and Bela getting eaten by dogs when everyone hated her. You can't keep everyone happy! And if you try, you end up ... being really uninteresting, man.

Aha, it's fine. ^^

I didn't really see Ruby as ever being really independent or having her own motivations-- then again, as I said, I hate her and never could stand her; I always thought she was a worthless character who never had a place in the show. The only reason she came in was to appease the fangirls, and frankly her entire story arc reads like a fanfiction.net story (though not as much as Anna's - don't get me started on Anna, I can't stand her, I can't even watch those episodes EVER again).

You have a point about Bela, too. I hated her, but I have to admit, she was a lot more of an independent character than Ruby was, though towards the end she sort of started leaning towards everything hinging on the boys.

I'm pretty sure the only "character development" the boys are getting these days consists of "stagnate Dean" and "turn Sam into a complete and utter dick". I'm really, really hating this season. I'm hating what they're doing to the boys and it pisses me off. You're right about the secondary characters, too. It's pissy what they're doing for the sake of a forced and fake storyline that isn't working (the "Sam v. Dean, heaven v. hell" shit). :\

You're right, that's probably true. I feel like such a minority in SPN fandom, because Jo is one of my favorite characters - I loved her, she had so much potential and she was so awesome! I hate that he kicked her off to cater to those that screamed loudest just because she dared to have a crush on Dean (like they wouldn't in her position, right?). And then that same catering led to Ruby basically raping Sam while he was drunk in s4! What the fuck?! Don't see where that's getting Kripke except despised by me lately.

Good, cos apparently this subject draws out the long-winded pseudo-academic in me xD

I haven't thought Sam was all that nice a guy ever since Faith, which was waaaaay back in season one, so him becoming a dick doesn't really bother me. HOWEVER, I wish he'd stop sitting around whining about it, and actually go out and be a dick, if that's how things are going to be.

I've been expecting the Sam vs. Dean thing since season one, that doesn't bother me. I'm not thrilled with the angels, because I think it's unoriginal. Anna was so goddamn boring, I hated those episodes. But seriously, my major problem with this series is JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, STOP TALKING AND GO FUCKING DO SOMETHING, I DON'T EVEN CARE MUCH WHAT IT IS AT THIS POINT AUUUUUUUGH.

Oh, and the misogyny. Which is what I was bitching about to begin with, heh.

I don't necessarily think he's a "nice guy" in that sense, but I never really thought of him as a dick. Then again, I apparently see the show through rose-colored glasses - I've been praying for ages, "Surely they wouldn't turn the brothers against each other... right? Right?" I've always said the only thing that would make me stop watching the show would be if Sam and Dean had to fight each other and/or actually hated each other. ;-;

I just want the boys to be brothers again, you know? I always used to say, you know, if Sam went bad and decided what the hell, lead the demon army... Dean would be his second in command, just to follow Sam into the dark. :\

I didn't like the angels, either... Anna pissed me off because she was a Mary Sue and I'm pretty sure I wrote fanfics better than her entire story arc when I was thirteen (I mean, FFS, her "grace" looked like a necklace I saw at the Claire's in the mall!).

I want them to resolve shit and end this already. I've heard rumors this might be the last season and... at this point, to be honest, I hope they're true. I just want them to end with the boys still together, you know? I know it's a real long-shot, but... mrrr. I shouldn't get so emotionally invested in television characters, lol.

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